Higher Power, A deal with God Options

[Rhenardine]

Ok, here is the deal, Sir. If I am to thank you every time something goes right, or I get a break somewhere, YOU are to apologise to me whenever something turns to shit. Fair enough?

[Nepenthe]

I wouldn't hold your breath in anticipation of a response.

[habraxas]

no, you should thank him whenever something turns to shit as he's giving you an opportunity to test youself.

Also, if there were no downs you wouldn't be aware ov the ups & know to thank Him.

[denm]

You are supposed to thank him/her/it for the shit too.

But of course there is not god. So why bother.

[Rhenardine]

no, you should thank him whenever something turns to shit as he's giving you an opportunity to test youself.

Oh! I see! THAT"S how the game is played----- 'house wins every time'

Deal me out.

[J_Ramone]

I've had what I call my "Making deals with God" times. Usually this was during the height of WD's or a couple times when I was in serious agony.

It never made any difference one way or the other.

So, if people want to thank "God", they can. If people want curse "God", they can. I'm not a religious person, so it really doesn't matter to me.

That's not to say I don't believe in some Higher Power. I believe something caused "The Big Bang", but I have no idea what, or what was here before the Big Bang, so I just say it was some Higher Power - Something I may not understand until the day I die, and even then there's no guarantee I'll get the answer - or if I do get the answer that I'll be able to comprehend it.

So, I have my Higher Power, and Higher Power takes care of all the things I don't understand and would go crazy trying to figure out.

J

[Rhenardine]

I've had what I call my "Making deals with God" times. Usually this was during the height of WD's or a couple times when I was in serious agony.
J

J, I aint makin any deals, just revealing my cynical self. Sure..something is out there, just not a supernatural being that will ever intercede on our behalf. This is where i part company with the 12 step crowd. Since I am now hanging out with that very crowd once again I just needed to vent a bit. No offense meant to anyone.

[somsolo]

Even if there is a god like the biblical sort, you dont make deals with it. The self-deception, pretentiousness and simple foolishness of this type of thinking is incomprehensible to me. There is no god that gives a shit about you getting a parking space where you want, a promotion, a wad of money, or some shiny new toy, or anything else, we are here and on our own to make our way on our own.

lol and as much as I believe that and know it just as much as someone that believes in whatever variation of a god knows, I still find the thought of praying (more like begging and pleading) when I am in a situation that is stressful enough to bring it out. Fortunately it isn't often, and does not cross my mind as much over time, but damn it, it's still there. Now what kind of an asshole would I or anyone else be to deny the typical view of god until I got into some kind of trouble LOL and so many people do this......

A relative of mine is a devout Christian and has been for years, also was a police officer for a long, long time. I found out he stopped wearing his vest to work, when I asked about this, the response was like saying that he was trusting god to protect him. As if he was making a deal with his god, he would put his life into gods hands and trust that he would intervene, like he needed to prove his faith in god, to god, by entrusting his life to his god, every day. And it wasn't working for some backwoods department, he worked in a very dangerous city. lol probably a simpler way of saying that, but there it is. I didn't say anything to him and just let the conversation move on, but my honest reaction would have been a dropped jaw, in disbelief at the presumptous arrogance in doing such a thing. I have to admit that I was impressed in this level of faith, crazy as it was. This is a person that has spent much of his life in being prepared as much as possible for dangerous situations, years before becoming an officer, self-preservation was a major life-long focus.

Not trying to start a religious debate, it's pointless, and along the lines of politcal debate, both are a waste of time to go back and forth about. Having said that, believers, in your heart, in the back of your mind, do you really, truly believe that there is a god with a personality that just watches out for you and listens to you asking for this or that? I just dont get the mentality of this, it is so rooted in selfishness and mental masturbation. Anyone can believe anything they want about a soul or some kind of life after death or judgement for your life and how you lived it, etc, etc, but no one KNOWS one way or the other, it's a belief and cannot be anything more. Adding more faith and belief changes nothing, it is what it is.

The alternative of coming to grips with the reality that we are here on our own and no higher authority figure is around to dole out punishment when deserved, make the wrong right, and intervene on our behalf when we are the equivalent of a crying, scared child, and give meaning to this very questionable existence, well that's pretty fucking scary to contemplate, for someone that has been raised to believe, even if you don't believe. It's such a part of our culture, to try and step above this ingrained type of thinking is not an easy task, and really, it's a lot more comforting and easier to keep the belief that you are being watched out for.

Heh I guess there isn't an answer or solution for some problems, another thing that is very difficult to truly understand and integrate into consciousness....

[J_Ramone]

J, I aint makin any deals, just revealing my cynical self. Sure..something is out there, just not a supernatural being that will ever intercede on our behalf. This is where i part company with the 12 step crowd. Since I am now hanging out with that very crowd once again I just needed to vent a bit. No offense meant to anyone.

No offense taken here. I'm really not a religious person and don't know much about the organized religions at all - except they've seemed to cause a lot of pain and misery over the years (That's not flame bait -it's just what I believe)

J

[Genshed]

I'm reminded of a short poem by Stephen Crane:
"A man said to the universe,
'Sir, I exist!'
'However,' replied the universe,
'The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.'"

That said, I am aware that I am currently living a life
that I've spent several years visualizing with great
precision and persistence. It occurs to me that the
Universe may have, in sheer puckishness, decided to
grant me my desires if only to see how I would react.
So far, my reaction is - gratitude. Sheer, trembling, gratitude.

I hope the Universe approves.

I'm reminded of a short poem by Stephen Crane:
"A man said to the universe,
'Sir, I exist!'
'However,' replied the universe,
'The fact has not created in me
A sense of obligation.'"

That said, I am aware that I am currently living a life
that I've spent several years visualizing with great
precision and persistence. It occurs to me that the
Universe may have, in sheer puckishness, decided to
grant me my desires if only to see how I would react.
So far, my reaction is - gratitude. Sheer, trembling, gratitude.

I hope the Universe approves.

[Coda]

Anyone can believe anything they want about a soul or some kind of life after death or judgement for your life and how you lived it, etc, etc, but no one KNOWS one way or the other, it's a belief and cannot be anything more...

On this point, I must disagree, Som. There are devouts out there that know there is a god, just as strongly as you know the sun is shining. Their proof differs from what you or I consider proof - it is intangible, and lies in the heart. But to say that their "knowing" there is a god is less concrete than your "knowing" the earth is round, or any other easily proven fact (evolution pops to mind) would be untrue. Everything else in your post I wholly agree with - particularly the impotence of arguing religion (or politics) - these are topics near & dear to their hearts, and you aren't gunna change anybody's mind...

[somsolo]

Sorry, I should clarify what I meant, I'm glad you pointed that out, because I didn't realize how it could come across.

What I meant by knowing that an individual's belief is fact, like anyone that believes in god or whatever, they KNOW it's real and true, just like you said most people believe it is true beyond a doubt that the earth is round, what I was trying to say was that religious beliefs are no more sure of being fact than anything else, outside of the persons belief systems. There is no objective way to know for a fact, only believe. I can tell you that this particular rock is a mixture of iron and copper salts, if you don't believe me, we can test it to see. If I tell you my god is the only one, well you know what happens then

This post has been edited by somsolo: Sep 18 2009, 08:36 PM

[Coda]

If I tell you my god is the only one, well you know what happens then

Yes - my god crushes your god in her fist, and blows the dust across the earth - falling like pixie dust from heaven. Or maybe they just rock / paper / scissors for the right to be the mono of monotheism...

Makes about as much sense as every other story I've heard...

[ratgirldjh]

sadly i have never been able to take the leap of faith that totally getting into reliigion requires... but i am fascinated by religion and spirituality and continually search for information, etc. and have lately been fascinated by The Essene Books of Peace as well as orthodox jewish spirituality so maybe one day i will take a leap of faith somewhere - who knows???

i do love the essene version of our heavenly father being over the heavenly realm (spiritual realm) and our earthly mother being over the earthly realm and the elements being angels... angel of sunlight, angel of air, angel of water....

also, my bf has been going to AA meetings lately and they seemed to really have helped him come back from severe depression even though he hasn't been using - so whatever works

This post has been edited by ratgirldjh: Oct 29 2009, 10:14 PM

[Earthgro]

I am a devout Christian myself, so I'll go ahead and jump into this fray.....hopefully, I can give you'all a point of view that helps you understand my own faith, and do so in a way that does not proslytyze or sound preachy....

Start with the basics: I believe the Big Bang was God, Yaweh, Jehovah, or whatever's great act of creation..the Big Bang had to have a start, a "something" to push it along and make it happen......so, Big Bang wasn't any accident, but was the act of a creator...

This creator must have had some purpose in creating the universe.....every creation has some purpose...one does not build a house and leave it empty....

....the complexity we see in the universe, from the strangeness of quantum physics, to the simple beauty of a flower, are reflections of a creator....and, yes, even the more subjective characteristics of creation may, too, reflect some aspects of a creator....the feelings of love, warmth, touching, these all may have evolved over time, but they are no less reflections of a creator than the cold, hard physical laws of the universe...in fact, anything that comes into being in this universe has some reflection of the creator....

Now, if you accept a creator, and one with a purpose, you now have the dilemna as to how or whether this creator interacts with its creation....a thorny problem indeed......does the creator involve itself in the actions of its creations? Perhaps. Perhaps not. We know this creator created with a purpose, but it remains unknown what this ultimate purpose is.

I'll write more later, I'm too sick from w/d to write too much or think as clearly as I should, but allow me to pose one question? How would a creator communicate itself to its creations? Think about this, it is not as straightforward a thing as you might believe at first.....

This post has been edited by Earthgro: Nov 7 2009, 07:12 PM